Row rages over defining who is a Jew Options

[Andy]

'Scuse me, but isn't this whole thing basicaly racist?

Is Judaism a race, or a religion? You gotta choose: it can't be both.

[Aramis]

Why not?

[Andy]

Why not?

Because they are totally different concepts. Read "The Intolerance of Tolerance" and you will understand. Mixing up the belief set and the race allows them to defend their beliefs unfairly. Namely, if I criticise Judaism the religion, they can 'pull the race card', and accuse me of being racist. The whole thing is wallowing in irony.

[Aramis]

As I lump Judaism, the religion, in with all others it has no relevance to me. People have been hiding behind that for centuries and will continue to do so. After all, in racial terms there is little or nothing to distinguish the semitic "races" from each other, only religion determines upon which side of the fence they sit.

Or on which end of the bazooka.

[Yvan]

From what I understand, Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. Goes back to when they were known as God's People in the Bible. A Gentile could become Jewish as a Proselyte. Persons from other areas became Jews all the time. Some North African people were also Jews for example who later converted to Christianity in what later became the Coptic Church.

The term ethnoreligious group is used to refer to those whose ethinicity and religion go back so far that you can't have one without the other.

[Andy]

The term ethnoreligious group is used to refer to those whose ethinicity and religion go back so far that you can't have one without the other.

Wow, I didn't know there was a word for it, and a Wikipedia page. I notice that the page refers darkly to "some subsequent controversial court decisions" . Yeah, like, I'm not surprised.

The philosophy of community interactions is a spiders' web of tangled emotional principles, and I feel that the linking of religious choice to ethnic background is a knot - a short circuit - that is inevitably going to lead to paradoxes and stupid conclusions. I believe pretty strongly that religious choice should not benefit from the protection afforded to ethnic background. I hope we don't suffer from that here in Canada.

[Elliot]

Wow, I didn't know there was a word for it, and a Wikipedia page. I notice that the page refers darkly to "some subsequent controversial court decisions" . Yeah, like, I'm not surprised.

The philosophy of community interactions is a spiders' web of tangled emotional principles, and I feel that the linking of religious choice to ethnic background is a knot - a short circuit - that is inevitably going to lead to paradoxes and stupid conclusions. I believe pretty strongly that religious choice should not benefit from the protection afforded to ethnic background. I hope we don't suffer from that here in Canada.

The article seems to 'skim' over the fact that there is no "proof" for these people. So much for the BBC being totally unbiased. They don't present
the whole story this time. I am disappointed in that.

It does a poor job of explaining the situation.

Israel is flooded by refugees many claiming the "right of return". Many do not qualify. If you are Jewish you have the right to 'return' to Israel and
claim your right as a Citizen.

It is similar to British Law. If your mother was born in England then you can be British. (At least it was that way a few years back).

Of course you would have to prove your 'right'.

If you had no records and your parents were dead, how would you prove it. Of course records in
England would be quite well kept, however in Russia, not as likely.

So Israel is swamped with immigrants that claim they belong but may not.

Does this sound familiar anywhere in the west ?

To be Jewish according to the Jewish faith, your mother must be Jewish. The Israeli government requires proof. Often it can not be provided, so they ask
that you "prove" it through your committment to an "orthodox" lifestyle.

Like any law it is not perfect, but it is there to protect those that deserve what the law offers and protect it from massive abuse.

The logic (if religion ever has any) is that you can always tell who the mother was, but not always who the father is. This ensure you know who is "of the faith" for sure.

Others can become Israeli, it is just that being Jewish gives you a "direct " pass into the club.

Again this shows the article lack of completeness in explaining the situation to those not familiar with the rules.

Andy - No question that the Religion is Jewish.

The Hebrew people were Jewish and they follow Judiasm.

Like Christianity you can be many types.

There are many types of Jews that follow Judiasm.

I think that if you looked at a very religious Christian you might find a 'Cultural' side as well. Jewish people have a lot of culture but a lot of that comes

from most of them being from Europe. No different than a French Roman Catholic. Are they "Cultural" or "Religious.

Hope this sheds a bit of light.

E

[Andy]

{the BBC} does a poor job of explaining the situation. Israel is flooded by refugees, many claiming the 'right of return'; many do not qualify. If you are Jewish you have the right to 'return' to Israel and
claim your right as a Citizen.

You're right, that concept was absent from the piece, and it is significant. The one significant illuminating idea you brought to this, is that it's about the right of Israel to choose its immigrants. It may be racist... but that is no different from any other country, and this is new information for me, and that's why I had to think about it for a day before answering. Countries are of necessity racist about their borders; if you were descended from us, you have rights. If you are a foreigner, you have the crumbs of the refugee system and nothing else. This is normal, and we accept it as a necessity. Most countries have the benefit of a rigid geographic definition, but Israel is different, and if they choose to define themselves in some other way, that's quite understandable given the history.

The logic (if religion ever has any) is that you can always tell who the mother was, but not always who the father is. This ensure you know who is "of the faith" for sure.

That doesn't make sense because you can't prove what your faith is by your heritage; only your race. This kind of statement is the short circuit of which I speak. It's plainly silly, and yet people seem to accept it. Shall we check Ch-a-Troll's mother out to make sure he's really the anarchist that he claims? Or perhaps we should ask CM's mother some searching questions about her younger life, since CM seems to be leaning in the same direction? Or perhaps... just perhaps... that would be silly.

The Hebrew people were Jewish and they follow Judiasm.

It's the word "Jewish" that's the problem for me. It's the wire that shorts the race (Hebrew?) to the belief system (Judaism?). People talk about it as a race in one breath, and then switch to a belief system the next, and no one bats an eyelid.

Who has the 'Right of Return', Hebrew people, or believers in Judaism? If it's Hebrew people, then you can't prove that by following an orthodox Judaist regime for a certain time. If it's believers in Judaism, then fine, but it would be like Canada opening the doors to Roman Catholics, but no one else. Would that be acceptable?

Try to answer without using the short-circuit word.

[Lord Kramer]

Greeks are the same way religion and ethnicity go hand in hand. A Greek is proud to be Greek and proud to be Orthodox Christian, unless you are a Commie or a Greek believing in the Old Customs and Religions.

[Elliot]

Greeks are the same way religion and ethnicity go hand in hand. A Greek is proud to be Greek and proud to be Orthodox Christian, unless you are a Commie or a Greek believing in the Old Customs and Religions.

Grrr I hate these threads, as there is SOOO much to discuss. We could go on for a lifetime discussing such things, (as do many people both learned and otherwise) withought coming to a conclusion.

I think that French Canadians and Roman Catholic would go hand in hand, as do Italians.

I see Andy's difficulty. We seem to define humans in many ways.

Amongst many ways we define ourselves, "Race" is one of those ways.

This is a 'chemical' trail that we can link a group together. This is easy to accept for most people. Though as we assimilate the question of

race may become not relevant. This is not "man made" to the best of our knowlege. I don't think we were 'bred' as animals have been.

Religion is another 'definer'. This one however is man made. (It only becomes truly devine to those that believe in their specific religion).

As we know there are many many religions fighting to be the "ONE". Each has it's claim to being correct and true and we all chose which one we believe to be true.

Christianity accepts all people. One might argue that that is noble, another may suggest it is a mere marketing scheme to get as many folks on board.

Self preservation of a religion seems to come in many forms.

Christianity chooses to do it by accepting all comers.

Judaism seeks to remain pure. There are two ways to become Jewish. One is to be born into it. One can also become a Jew if one wishes buy following a set of rules. These rules are more strict to an orthodox Jew than to a a reform Jew. An orthodox Jew may not recognize the beliefs of a Reform Jew.

I think this is mirrored in Christianity. Protestant versus Catholic.

I believe that in a Roman Catholic church that is very orthodox, you can not marry unless you agree to raise your children in the RC faith. Not much different than Jewish.

So Christianity can be a religion of convenience. You have a choice to be or not to be. In Judiasm you are born to the religion. Of course you can reject it, but from the religions point of view you are born to it.

I assume this goes along with being 'The chosen ones'. (Which by the way is misconstrued to mean that Jewish people are "special". - It means in fact that they were chosen to follow and ensure that "g-ds" laws are maintained. In fact it is a duty with a heavy burden, and not a "bonus") I assume this is why they tried to keep the religion "pure".

Remember, you cannot use modern logic here. You must asssume that IF the religion is correct it need not have logic.

It may be hard but try to separate Isreal the country with a mandate to preserve a religion from the religion it tries to preserve.

By the way if you really want to speak to "Race". Most Jews would be caucasion.

In fact many Arabs and Israelis would be Semitic people and closer related than one might think.

Much of the current Jewish culture would differ depending on where you are from or currently reside.

Trust me, an Israeli and someone Jewish from New York have very different 'cultures".

While Hummus and Tabouleh might be served by an Israeli, I always thought of it as Lebanese food.

I wonder how much "Borscht" is served in Israel. It was the European Jews that eat that.

So remember if you want to be Jewish, you can be, and if you want to be Israeli, you can be.

I can't however just go to the United States and move in. Guess that makes them bigots against Canadians, or White Folk, or Middle Aged men, or whatever mold I fit into.

Fact is all of this fits into our need to self preserve. Your home is not open to the public, and you might make rules as to how one can enter.